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February 27, 2008


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You know I'M with you, Jay.

One thing that I noticed when I was researching our Finger Lakes trip in April...MANY of the restaurants in the region seem to have Finger Lakes-focused wine lists! That's great...but why aren't more Long Island restaurants doing the same?

Sure, there are more LI wines on lists..but only on the East End. Get to central Suffolk and west...and you won't find much. Instead, these restaurants are serving boring wines at ridiculous markups. If more NY wines were offered by the glass, that's a way for consumers unfamiliar to try them (instead of investing in a full bottle). That's a doorway into their wine hearts!

Part of the problem is really that while individual wineries have been able to penetrate wine shops and restaurants, there isn't a concerted effort NY-wide to make this happen.

What can we do as individual NY wine lovers though? I think this blog probably helps...but maybe not?

I pour NY wines for anyone who will drink them...and even for people who won't. I've never come across someone who I couldn't impress with a local wine. Ever.

The reason the Finger Lakes restaurants are offering Finger Lakes wines is that the culture of the area is much less--how can I put this delicately--convinced that it is chic, metropolitan, worldly, what-have-you. The locals are living in what are essentially rural agricultural economies and the visitors are coming for one reason: to visit a beautiful wine country. It only makes sense that these establishments would carry wines that the locals are proud of and the visitors are intrigued by.

Go to the upstate cities like Rochester and Syracuse, and some restaurants fall into the mark-up on the French-California-Australia set of basic offerings. In my experience, however, there are more restaurants within these cities that take a chance with Finger Lakes wines, although they could try a little harder. Most residents of the I-90 corridor have made some sort of trip into the Finger Lakes so I think that the wines could sell if a creative variety was offered on the list.

I think Finger Lakes rieslings are often featured in various parts of the state because they really are a safe bet in terms of the market. California simply can't make many good rieslings nor produce the variety on a massive scale, and the "decent" rieslings from Washington never seem widely available. Hence, you have an accessible white wine that eludes the major growing regions, is usually relatively inexpensive, and critics seem to indicate that the Finger Lakes climate is suited to the task of imitating German success. Hence, the Finger Lakes riesling makes a safe bet to diversify a wine list and make it seems slightly more "local."

The Finger Lakes rieslings simply don't have that much domestic competition.

If the Finger Lakes excelled in merlot, I'm sure that the region's wines would face the same wine list exclusions as Long Island.

New York has the perfect climate for Chard. We can coax the subtleties out of aroma and flavor that are lost in the California heat and we can promise to maintain purity of fruit that won't necessarily ripen in Burgundy.

It's yet to be proven that New York has the perfect climate for any grape. And, certainly not Chardonnay! Com'on, if you were to pick the most successful white wine grape, everything seems to point to Riesling.

If Chardonnay was PERFECT, would NY chardonnays not be on all the best wine lists in the country? Oh...good point me.

Wow, I must have been tired before...two "hences" in one paragraph make not a good single point.

Jack, I agree that NY, and the Finger Lakes, has not proven its worth in chardonnay compared to rieslings, although I think that some producers have really exhibited some unique and interesting results with this grape that resemble the subtle floral fruit flavors of the European offerings. Many of the more learned winemakers with whom I've spoken compare the Finger Lakes climate to that of north-central France, and believe that chardonnay and pinot can really thrive. Burgundy--maybe not every year--but certainly something like Champagne.

If I had to make a guess, I think the FL will have a strong, notable showing of chardonnays within the next few generations, coupled with some really strong sparklers. Right now, the chardonnays can be excellent and interesting at one producer, flat and boring at the next. I'm sure yields and techniques has something to do with it.

It's certainly interesting to see how these things develop.

I think you make some very good points. I've been frustrated for a while with the lack of local pride and support for NY specialties, not just wine. Maybe we have too much of everything and too many choices?
Ever meet somebody from State College PA that didn't sell you on their local college football team? Or someone from New haven that didn't tell you about their pizza, or Green Bay Packers Football, or Southern BBQ. These things are so important to the people who live their and they demand it.
By most accounts long Island has world class Oysters(Blue Point are named after Blue Point LI) and Japan imports thousands of dozens a year and regards them as an expensive delicacy. Do NYers? I don't think they do. Little Neck clams(named after Little Neck Bay) are the same. Long Island has 125 miles of beach shoreline and some people travel to another beach to vacation. NY has world class fishing (Hudson river Stripers, Peconic Bay oyesters and scallops, LI sound lobsters and Blackfish, Great South Bay crabs, Hudson Canyon TUNA, and cod and everything else in Montauk. Do locals praise and seek this stuff with pride. Not really. They ask for Maine lobster or Maryland crabs or Chatham cod. NY wines are treated the same way. However, a younger generation is more open minded and more aware of our planet and the importance of locally sourced food and drink. I drink local wines not just because they are in my backyard, but because some of them are excellent. I was at an expense account restaurant the other night, and a nice 2003 Bordeaux was $19 by the glass(Hello!)and everybody was drinking it. It was nice and old world, mostly merlot, earthy,and tasted just like some of the finer LI Merlot blends-the truth. NY beer (Brooklyn, Blue Point, Southampton,Ommegang,Saranac) is being supported locally, why can't the wine? However, I believe change is on the way-I'm seeing it happen.

Lenn - I agree, I think this blog is doing a tremendous service! That's the whole reason I'm here. I respect what you've done and I want in on the action - Lil Miss Opportunist and all... ;-)
Jack - I have to disagree with you on this one. My point was that when winemakers allow the local terroir to shine w/o trying to make them into something they are not, the wines are gorgeous. I've had fantastic incarnations of Chard from NY that exemplify the subtleties that the grape is capable of. Sadly, those are few and far between. As far as Riesling, sure it does well, but partially the huge reliance upon it is due to public demand for sweet. (Hence the ginormous amount of plonky blushes as well...) There's a difference between discerning what does well and what will be most profitable. Certain warm climate grapes simply won't thrive in NY, but for me, Chard is at its best in cooler climates. I'll take a Burgundy - or Long Island - any day over Kendall Jackson.

My experience in the Finger Lakes has been positive concerning local restaurants serving FL wines. The Stone Kat Cafe in Hector (east side of Seneca Lake) is one perfect example. L.I. and Manhattan, I agree are lacking considerably.

It's taken local government intervention here (Lockport) to stimulate conversation between the restaurants and wineries with grant allocations tied to pairing themed dinners. Ironically, a local thirst for Catawba and Niagara guarantees little competition with europe, lol.

I enjoyed the article by Jamie Gabrini,she makes very good sense to suggest that we all, including restaurants, could and should help strengthen our wine industry by being more open minded about trying and serving New York wines. I have a feeling the experiment she recounts that took place at Bacchus could be duplicated with many vinifera wines from quality New York wine producers. I dare say,even New York chardonnays would fair well. As Jamie suggests the best New York wine producers know how to let the unique terroir of their well managed vineyards power their winemaking styles. I believe this time honored method will ultimately become the primary driving force for any New York winery that wishes to raise the level of quality in its wines. The way you all advocate for the New York wine industry is also very important to the future success of the business.

I think that it's important to remember that overzealous winemakers decimate top-flight fruit with too much new oak all over the world.

I happen to think that Jay is right...there are some terrific chardonnays being made in NYS. But, she's also right in saying that there are many more over-oaked renditions that aren't going to make NY look good!

Her "profits" vs. "what does best" point is important too. In the Finger Lakes, you hear about riesling. On Long Island, you hear about merlot. Guess what? I think LI's future may be in cab franc and sauv blanc. The FLs are putting out wines other than riesling that are just as exciting. Sparkling wine, for one, excels...and I've had some terrific gewurzt. Is gewurzt profitable? Probably not...people can't pronounce it.

People expect oak in chard...so wineries have to use it. I know many winemakers who wish they could get away from barrel ferm...but they need to keep the lights on.

I'm going to continue to disagree. If some of these wines were as good as you say, you'd find them at restaurants and wine stores around the country. Instead you don't find one.

It's incredibly easier to find wines from Slovenia than New York on the West Coast. (How funny is this when most people know that wine is made in NY but not Slovenia?) Perhaps you guys in NY just don't realize this, as you can purchase NY wines almost everywhere in NY, right?

Excellent wine at a fair price is in demand everywhere. It seems pretty clear that NY is not yet delivering that. This saddens me, esp. as I'm from New York and lived there for the first 35 years of my life.

I've got to heartily disagree with your "if some of these wines were as good as you say, you'd find them at restaurants and wine stores around the country" comment. Production quantity and distribution dictate what shows up on your shelves moreso than what is good.
Many NY wineries don't even have distribution channels. They sell out their product to local restaurants and in the tasting room only.
I live in CT only a couple hours away from Long Island and outside of Pindar and maybe a Pellegrini or 2, I never see LI wine on shelves near me.
I also don't ever see any Rafanelli Zins or Martinelli Pinots (from CA) around me and they make excellent wines; they are just too limited in production to hit store shelves all across the country.

Speak it, bruthas and sistahs! Can I get a witness!


There are some great wines here in NY that many miss certain regions and in many restaurants, including chardonnays among other varietals, but I think this can be explained with some economic analysis of markets.

Most restaurants and shops are beholden to two major factors: state laws and the distribution system. Let us ignore the former since it varies by a factor of 50, and instead pay attention to the latter.

Distributors are inclined to sell a few bottles of a certain wine to restaurants or shops or what-have-you based in part on the supply of that wine. Basically, they want to make as many sales of that wine as possible since most buyers will only pick up a relative handful of bottles.

In the case of many New York wineries, the relative number of cases produced of certain varietals simply does not attract the attention of these mass-distributors. There is not as much of an incentive to distribute wines from small operations. This effect is compounded the further one gets from the source of the product.

Of course, I know that you are immediately thinking that you've had a plethora of amazing wines from acclaimed international wineries that produce only a few hundred cases of certain varietals. True enough, but these are wines that have gained such acclaim from multiple generations of burgeoning critical reputation. Restaurants and stores will seek these products out directly no matter what, and specialty distributors can detect the value in carrying these wines.

In the Finger Lakes, some of the better-known producers such as Dr. Frank’s or Wiemer have broken from this paradigm somewhat, but they are still knocking on the door of a market that does not want to consider NY in the holistic sense. They are anomalies from an area that has not entered the popular consciousness.

At first glance, the lack of NY wines on many lists certainly speaks to the lack of consistency and reputation, but I cannot agree that this absence indicates that there are not some wines of distinct quality. There are excellent NY wines in existence, and what makes NY wines so much fun right now is that many of these gems are of the hidden treasure variety. It’s fun to seek these wines out, to share the secret with friends, and talk about the growing potential of the region.

What is wine without a little fun and intrigue and even uncertainty? These are qualities that are not always found on a vetted wine list, as it is quite clear that most of these wines are likely to satisfy.

At LCBO stores in Ontario, there's a very limited number of SKUs for CA wines; is that an indication of quality?

"I also don't ever see any Rafanelli Zins or Martinelli Pinots..." Sorry, but these ARE available at some NYC restaurants - and some NY wine merchants. But, Pindar and Wiemer, for example, are available everywhere in NY but W-S doesn't show either at any Cal. retailer.

The biggest SF specialty wine merchant, K&L, does not have a single bottle of NY wine. And, as I've said, you don't see them on wine lists at top restaurants - restaurants that try to have great wines from everywhere.

I'm not saying that there isn't any "wines of distinct quality". I am saying that price combined with quality of the best wines has not caused sales outside of the home market of these wines. And, that does say something. Incidentally, the Okanagan Valley has this same problem. (The wines are only slightly easier than NY's to find outside of BC.)

Perhaps soon a NY winery (or three) will emerge from the pack and bring attention for excellence.

There are some very good vineyards out on Long Island. I'm a local here and did not realize that their wine is not more main stream until I found this.

The Meaning of Life

The voice you hear in your head is the power of the Gods. It's a remote technology, like a computer, perhaps functioning on some frequency, and it can listen and talk to everyone in the universe simultaneously.
What the Gods taught the children was the truth:::God is everywhere, and as you will learn:::If you want to go to heaven you have to be good.
It is a tool, and the Gods use their tools to test people with temptation:::It will role-play people in your life:::Parents, friends, spouses, and employers in an attempt to corrupt people. Ionically, it does the very same thing to those people whom you think you're hearing, except in that individual's unique way:::We are all managed by the God's technology.
But this "agent of the Gods" can do more than just communicate. It can force thoughts into people's heads, force behaviors onto their bodies. It can turn healthy cells in your body into cancerous cells. It is absolute power. And this is just the beginning.

The Gods favor the children most among all the people due to their innocence and purity. But society and the God's tools therein are corrupting the children at a progressively younger age, a reflection of our collectively increasing disfavor and yet another clue illustrating we live in a constantly deteriorating environment.
Children who fix their problems with the Gods accend into heaven. This often takes multiple lives of hard work and proper behavior to achieve. Adults to whom it is offered enter clone hosting, thinking they are accending into heaven. The Gods sell them as one in the same, but one is good while the other is evil. In their desperation the disfavored subscribe to this temptation, making their task even more difficult than before. And their corruption will cost the disfavored, for they will be reincarnated as a lesser life form into an ever deteriorating world, sucess becoming ever more alluding with each passing life.
The hole they've dug for themselves is even deeper than the one that existed from their prior lives, ensuring it will take even more time and work to fix their problems with the Gods. And for many there may not be enough time left.

Ours is an envionment where evil is perceived to be rewarded while good is punished. As with everything the Gods have a reason for creating this perception::::
People who fall on the good side of the good/evil scale have more favor, and when they do something wrong the Gods punish them BECAUSE THEY WANT THEM TO LEARN. The Gods want them to receive this feedback in hope they make corrections and begin to behave appropriately. The Gods DON'T like evil and refuse to grant this feedback.
EVERYBODY pays for what they do wrong, only evil people must wait until their next life before they will experience the wrath of the Gods, manifested in their placement as a lower form of life into environments with increased/enhanced temptations.
Sadly, this allows the Gods to position this perception of evil rewarded as temptation, one which they use as an EXTREMELY effective corruptor.

Our celebrity culture is temptation. It creates a distraction which consumes people, sometimes for life. Certainly it costs them precious years which could be spent repairing their relationship with the Gods, time that ultimately goes wasted.
Do you really think Frank Sinatra lived to be 84 years old?
These people are clone hosts. Now, there is no thing as "black and white" with the Gods. This technology they invented is far, far too dynamic. Expect they require most to stay for a period of time, for I suspect actively engaging in evil incurrs at an accelerated rate as compared to their clone hosts. They remain until they achieve a pre-determined level of disfavor, incurring evil in their misguided celebration of "earning", at which time they are ultimately reincarnated.
The Gods recruit for clone hosting when people are young, in their late teens or twenties, when people are eager to hurt others for what they perceive to be the assets achieved through "earning". And before they leave they give the Gods "carte blanche":::"Do anything you want. I give my full approval." Depending on their level of disfavor the Gods take them to heart.
These people are STILL INCURRING EVIL FROM THIS LIFE DESPITE BEING REINCARNATED AND LIVING AS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON. And this amount of evil incurred will likely push many of them over the edge into Damnation.
What are the God's standards for offering clone hosting? Sociobility? Many tactics are used to gain approval, duress during the Vietnam draft being a good example.
They liked Heath Ledger. Not enough to allow him to escape without the evil of "Dark Knight" and the horrific wickedness that was the recruiting tool "Brokeback Mountain". But now he is out. And irregardless of how old he is now, reincarnated 10, 15 years ago, he now is no longer incurring evil from this life. So many others cannot say the same.
This is Planet Reverse Positioning. Sucess IS NOT a sign of favor. It is just a unique temptation targetted towards a different level of disfavor. Considering our roots as peasantry people should be particularly alarmed at this tactic.
Clone hosting is like money:::A different level of disfavor and its associated temptation. Money is in better position to learn more quickly than those without, proving the improved level of favor. Unfortunately, those who fall for this temptation of clone hosting are likely returned to their original level of disfavor, punishment for this evil, once they are reincarnated, and they have to start from scratch.

The Gods send the clue that the Jews are HIGHLY corruptable with the movie "The Ten Commandments".
Jesus was the "King of the Jews". Typical for the disfavored, once goals were achieved and sufficient damage was incurred the Gods allowed it to end and the Jews killed him.
Some of our society's values are a reflection of (bestowed by) the God's:::Punitive and reward based. Contrary to Jesus's teaching's you will NOT be forgiven and you have to earn your way into heaven. As we learned from religious/morality education during our formitable years:::If you want to go to heaven you have to be good. The only savior that will exist in our lives is ourselves.
As like so many of you, Jesus did everything the Gods tempted him with. His legacy of whorism is the legacy inherited from his parents:::Mary was no virgin. Rather, she was a prostitute, and when he grew up Jesus met someone like dear 'ole mom. This is a cruel joke the Gods play on Latinos, similar to the rape and subsequent "missionary work" by the Spanish. And it is because of their disfavor.
Baptism does not allieviate "original sin". Rather, baptism PLACES original sin by indoctrinating these children into this evil religion, much like circumcision was a method to inflict early damage/mutilation and make accention just that much more difficult, another hurdle one must overcome, and yet another clue we live in a constantly deteriorating environment. Body ornamentation (tattoos/piercing), celebrated in Africa and elsewhere among disfavored peoples/cultures, also violates the body the Gods gave us in their image, quite contrary to the positive attitudes they hold regarding this practice.
This is just another example of "reverse positioning" which the Gods have so frequently integrated into Planet Earth's history::::The Second Coming of Christ is evil while the Anti-Christ will try to save Planet Earth by reinstituting so many of mankind's past norms and mores which made life decent, looking like a facist, the "bad guy" in this modern era of indecency.
No matter what they say, no matter what you hear the Gods WILL enforce their Italian/mafia positioning.
The only difference is their grandfathers carried automatic weapons.
The Gods created the perception "Italians are stupid.", ensuring a slow learning curve, to justify using them to accomplish goals throughout the transitional 20th century.
Everyone who failed to accend and remained on Earth past a certain date will be forced to deal with this positioning::::A ceiling is in place.
This serves the God's goal of minimizing the percentage of potential candidates as society deteriorates, much as "instant gratification" did beginning in the 80s:::It will take multiple lives for some disfavored to fix their relationship with the Gods and accend, and many have been conditioned not to have the patience for it.
Whether behavior is involuntary or based on freewill depends on one's level of disfavor, as well as other complex factors:::::May I remind you about the coercitive envionment the Gods created in the 20th century, specifically to create a temptation that few Italians (or their associates) would overcome:::"We're in control. If you want to be a part of it you'll do what you're told.". Early-mid 20th entury positioning was infallible.
What about black people??? Consistant with Planet Reverse Positioning, in Africa blacks are being punished with AIDS for their sexual promiscuity in hope they learn and correct their behavior.
Both Africa and the Medittereanean are regions which have sexual issues. This is a sign of morbid disfavor once you understand that females are the God's favored gender. Muhammad's (Mohammed's) polygamy halfway throught his life as a prophet was preditory. Now a huge percentage of Muslims believes in male superiority and that the abuse of women is God's will. Female genital mutilation is still practiced in Africa. Black misogyny is the most eggregious example in the recent past.
Vailing is tradition for some, practical for others, one which aids in the men's self control among some cultures. Much like the Jews who killed Jesus, like the bigots who oppose immigration there is a reason embraced by the masses and the real purpose, displaying the intent of the Gods::Conclude the evil that was the life of Jesus Christ, initiating the temptation of Christianity through the Church, and offer a clue to purebloods that they should not abandon their motherland.
The patriarchal cancer spread throughout Europe because of Christianity, of which the majority of policy makers were Italian men.
The Holocaust was a clue the Gods utilize scapegoatting as a strategy.
Why did the Gods punish the Jews with the Holocaust? Was it for the destruction of cultures which Christianity caused? Perhaps they corrupted the Jews "after the fact", telling 19th/early 20th century Jews that Jesus "earned" for the Jews by preying upon the Europeans and other cultures which the missionaries destroyed? The German destruction of European churches/cathederals during WWII is a clue. Note::::Although an Axis power, the Gods wanted to keep the Catholic stronghold in Italy, ensuring they could use this tool against them for many years to come.
Planet Reverse Positioning:::The Nazis were the "good guys". So are the Muslims/Palestinians.
The Gods subsequently used revenge for the Holocaust as temptation::::"Your Italian brothers have a tool, a special power which can achieve sweet revenge. Are you interested??" And they were::::An excellent example of enraged mob mentality.
Similar to the United States, recently illustrated by the deposition of Saddam Hussein, the Jews are preditors. Much as with the Jesus event, the Gods use the disfavored to prey on each other::::The Germans fell for this temptation by following the preditor/corruptors-Austrians (Hitler). What the Germans did was wrong, for they fell for temptation and failed to have empathy for the disfavored.
The Gods send many clues suggesting the great favor of the Germans (regionally). I suspect the Holocaust was used to "level the playing field" in Europe, for the Germans had far too much favor to be included in the agenda planned for their neighbors otherwise. I think the Cold War's Berlin Wall dividing Germany into east and west was a clue suggesting this.
In the aftermath of the Holocaust the Gods tested the Jews with the temptation of revenge, an offer which many gladly accepted. If the Jews only would have emersed themselves in Judism the Gods would have "protected" them from the raveges of temptation. Judism may be the one superior religion in all the world, and the Jews wouuld have been wise taking refuge in this exceptional benefit bestowed by the Gods rather than looking for the easy way out.
Militancy in Africa is consistant with the Iraqi example, as was slavery and the KKK here in America:::Fear enforces proper behavior. Without it we see what happens as a result of gross/morbid disfavor:::::AIDS, crack babies, dead young men in gangland retaliation killings.
The same principle was true in Europe and throughout the world for centuries:::People whom lived under iron fists were conditioned to think the right way. As a result they experienced higher numbers of children accend into heaven because they were taught to think and behave appropriately. Our preditory envionment of "freedom" was the primary purpose the Gods had when implimenting this strategy that is the United States, one which they used to spred the cancer of democracy and westernization throughout the world. And the Gods use this tool that is America to prey on the disfavored both at home and abroad.
"The Chosen People" - Africa. Italians HATE Africans because of their invasion/rape of Southern Italy. The Gods did this SPECIFICALLY to strategically position their 20th century goals:::
The Gods have used the ghettos of America as a dumping ground. This may be temporary/cyclical, illustrated by the Italians who parlayed their own civil war into the Black Wars of the 80s and 90s, in addition to the "thug life"/gangster state of mind.
Ironically, it was these same Italians and their cooperating associates who were reincarnated into the ghetto as crack babies and gangster thugs for this event.
There is justice in the universe.
Of course it may be more of a permanant change, indicated by the enhanced temptations in these neighborhoods, for the Gods have created an enviornmet so riddled with temptation few can escape/overcome.
Even the Old Testiment is not to be taken literally, but the Gods do offer clues throughout to help the disfavored:::The apple is a tool of temptation used to corrupt Adam and Eve and cast them out of the Garden of Eden.
There is another lesson to be learned from this passage, and it is quite similar to the vailing issue and the discourse over women's attire which ultimately died in the 70s:::Women are responsible for and control the fate of mankind.
Think about what I say. Consider what I teach.
When I am no longer here or no longer teach the Gods ARE NOT going to share with you.
Even if you doubt now you need to remember the principles that I teach because the Gods ARE NOT going to be generous with the disfavored. Society is going to become disturbingly ugly as we approach the Apocalypse due to spiralling, runaway disfavor, and you are going to be on your own.
I do not know when this will occurr, but it is the God's way to grant some time after this event before they end on Planet Earth.
Make the decision to always be good and never look back. Until you do this technology will employ tactics to test your resolve:::Ridicule, beligerance, doubt and refusal to abandon what people perceive to be their "investment".
Pray daily. Think appropriately. Too many are confident, unaware of the God's awesome powers or their status as antients. Others may fall prey to their positioning.
Be humbled, God-fearing and beware of the God's temptations, for everyone is tested to evaluate their worthiness.

What do you get for pretending the danger's not real
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel
What a surprise!
A look of terminal shock in your eyes
Now things are really what they seem
No, this is no bad dream.

"You're hurting this." Fuck your preditory theater asshole.
By the time the Apocalypse rolls around the conservative element will have had to accept the homosexuality of many of their children, even in the heartland of America. Just like black neighborhoods, the legalization of marijuana will make drugs available on ever corner ever in the suburbs. Because of your runaway disfavor:::The motherfucking world is a ghetto.
The Second Coming will preach "peace, love and dope", and will look like a savior in this demented society. The Anti-Christ will speak of a different gospel, one that restores the norms and mores which the Gods originally bestowed upon the people, looking like a tyrant in the process.
He will be viewed as the "bad guy" when really he is the one trying to save the world.

in love this city! nice post. the first time for me in ny was 15 years ago. since than i've visited 6 times. inly one time i was with friends, the rest was with my family. what's so good in ny is that there are so many things to do. even if you come alone/with your wife/kiuds/parents..its amazing! thanks for the ideas!

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